Dallas-Fort Worth Real Estate Investor Club

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  • 31 Dec 2011 12:19 PM
    Message # 784620
    Deleted user
    I've only been at the REI business for less than a year, so I sometimes wonder if I really know what I'm doing. Luckily I have found that my "gut feeling" is correct most of the time, so I have managed to stay out of trouble so far.

    I'm on quite a few email lists of Wholesalers and had something come through the other day that makes me wonder what, if anything, I'm missing. The email was for a Sub2 deal and the financial info listed said there were two mortgages with balances totaling almost 129K and PITI payments of about $1300 per month and rent comps (his numbers) were $1325-$1350. Wholesale fee of $5000.

    So even if using his rental comp numbers this is a negative cash flowing deal once you back out yearly repair costs and vacancies. My gut gives a huge, resounding, BIG thumbs down on this kind of deal.  RIGHT?  Even though I know that it's my job to fully evaluate each deal before handing over money, as an investor, getting "offers" like this makes me somewhat skeptical of anything that comes down the line from this wholesaler.  Or is there something I'm missing here?

    I hope everyone is having a great holiday season and has a great, prosperous and healthy 2012!

    Cheers!  Joe - -
    Last modified: 31 Dec 2011 12:20 PM | Deleted user
  • 01 Jan 2012 9:05 AM
    Reply # 784868 on 784620
    Deleted user
    Joe,

    Like every deal, this one is dependent on the numbers. If it is a $250K house in a fantastic neighborhood, it's probably a deal. If it's a $105 - 110K house (more likely) in an average neighborhood, then it's not.

    That said, it has been my experience that most wholesalers fall into 3 basic categories:

    Category A ='s those wholesalers who are new, uneducated / unknowledgeable. These folks are doing the best they can, but they have not invested enough time, effort &/or money into gaining an REI education, and thus they make amateur mistakes (overvalue ARV, undervalue Repair costs). In the years I've been in this business, I've seen this category of wholesaler contain the largest number of wholesalers. Unfortunately, I've also seen the vast majority of them fail within 6 months.

    Then there are those folks in Category B. These wholesalers are professional network marketers. While there are not many of these folks, for most investors, these wholesalers' efforts tend to represent the vast number of wholesale "emails" you get daily. These wholesalers have an almost identical modus operandi. They tend to actually know what real repair costs and ARVs are, but they don't care. They ascribe to "the greater fool" theory of Real Estate marketing - meaning, they know they can rape a new investor and make $15 - 30K on a deal if they can just advertise their property nicely enough to enough people. These wholesalers eventually find a newer investor who is desperate to do his or her first deal, but uneducated enough to not know they are getting screwed. The new investor will pay WAAAAAY more than the property is worth and the wholesaler makes a fortune on that deal - which is not really a deal. If the investor is lucky, they get stuck holding a property they paid massively too much for. Eventually, 10 - 20 years later they might get their money back. If the investor is unlucky, they go out of business. Most of the time you can spot these jerks by their emails. The "deal" is being delivered by a sophisticated email platform like ConstantContact, iContact, Mad MiMi, etc. They use lots of pictures, flowery descriptions, TONS of superfluous info., lists of the exact repairs that need to be made and "quotes" from contractors who'll make them for you, and there's always a line in there somewhere that says "Hurry, at this price it won't last long!" Which is almost always followed by some statement like "$2,000 non-refundable fee required." If you still have doubts as to whether or not someone is in this category, don't buy the deal and continue watching your inbox. Usually, in a day or two you'll see the same deal re-marketed as "SOLD!!" If you actually track the deal you'll find it did not really sell. The wholesaler is just trying to train / condition the new investors into buying his deals quickly (creating a false sense of urgency). He's also trying to make another $2k of another uneducated investor. What happened was a new investor jumped on the "deal," paid the wholesaler his $2K non-refundable assignment fee, then had the good sense to back out of the deal. Then the wholesaler remarkers the deal hoping to snag another new investor for another $2K (or more). If you are on enough wholesale mailing lists eventually you'll see the same house being marketed by another wholesaler for slightly less money, and then the whole cycle repeats.

    Finally, there are the wholesalers in Category C. These are professional wholesalers. These are the folks new investors want to find and work with, and frankly, they are the kind of business people new wholesalers should emulate. These wholesalers have businesses which they run in a moral,  ethical, and businesslike manner. Unfortunately, b/c these guys are highly successful, these wholesalers are kinda hard to find. They tend to not advertise very much b/c they don't have to. They run the numbers (correctly), buy the house right (meaning below (ARV - R) *.65 = MOP)), and tend to sell their properties quickly to a small, select group or tried-and-true investors who make decisions in an hour or less, pay cash, and come back and buy again.

    If you have more questions about how to deal with these knuckleheads, don't hesitate to contact me.

    -Greg Wilson
    The REI Mentor
    http://www.reimentor.com 

  • 01 Jan 2012 11:04 AM
    Reply # 784907 on 784620
    Deleted user
    Thank you for the great detailed reply Greg. In my opinion you absolutely nailed it and reinforced my original skepticism about this sort of deal. It was closer to a 100K house and nowhere close to a 200K house. I know everyone is busy, but I would love to read more educational type of threads here on the discussion forum like this one.

    Now, I need to locate that email and find the UNSUBSCRIBE link.

    Happy New Year everyone!

    Joe - -
    Last modified: 01 Jan 2012 11:09 AM | Deleted user
  • 02 Jan 2012 10:06 AM
    Reply # 785334 on 784620

    Joe, Greg, All,

    I would agree with all that has been said with a couple additional thoughts.

    It's all about your exit strategy and risk verses reward in my opion.  Choose the wrong exit strategy and your in a pickle.  In the situation you addressed it's definately not a "wholesale" deal however IF you had an "Option to Purchase" on the house and marketed it with owner financing the wholesaler "MAY" be able to make a nice assignment fee of his "Option to Purchase" if he knows how to market the home for owner financing.  And, if the numbers are good enough you can exercise your "Option to Purchase" and buy it "Subject-to" and then sell it to your new buyer on a "WRAP" mortgage and earn a monthly cash flow we well.  In order for any of this to work, you have to understand the real numbers, and have a qualified buyer, and have a viable exit strategy.

    Since we dont know of the real numbers this strategy "may" or "may not" work for the situation you mentioned but this is a strategy I use frequently with success.  This is NOT your normal wholesaler strategy but more for "Transaction Engineers".  This is an opportunity to help alot of people and get paid, while at the same time not putting yourself at risk.

    Hope this helps.

    Happy New Year!  Make 2012 a great year!

    Tim

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